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Race, Gender, Music & the Industry
So I had this person (who is an African American female jazz trumpet player) on facebook make the following (unsolicited) posts about race and music on my profile...
Charmaine Michelle Duke Nokuri
(to which I replied)
Charmaine Michelle Duke Nokuri
I
don't care if a white person could play note for note or even better
than Freddie Hubbard or John Coltrane they will NEVER play with the
same passion that comes from the pain of being called a nigger or
understand that like my parents & every black parent born before
1965 were NOT American Citizens...anyone can play ...& appreciate jazz music but not everyone plays it with the same pain...
(to which I replied)
Tags: black, gender, industry, jazz, music, race, racism, sexism, white
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Talib Kweli on -
Charmaine is obviously in a lot of pain and bitter. Most of her issues (black men representing improperly, Birth of A Nation) have nothing to do with music. And since when does mainstream media like Jazz.com determine what we know to be the truth about music? That would be like me saying fuck hip hop because Billboard magazine says Wocka Flocka is a great rapper. Who cares what Jazz.com thinks about hows best? A real jazz fan doesn't. Her anger towards you is misguided and sad, but is also a reflection of how deep the racial divide is. Music is one of if not the only thing that has the ability to cut across racial lines and it provides hope that one day racism may not be an issue. I agree that you cannot play jazz with the same pain as a black musician, but so what? That is what makes your music your music. You have your own pain and experience that you add to whatever you play. The theft and exploitation of black music is a real issue, and something you must always be aware of as a player of music that comes from the black community but the argument that you should not play it or even the idea that this person has a right to come at you like that is ridiculous. You owe a debt to black music no doubt. We all do. But the internet and social networking leads people to believe they can randomly pick someone out to crucify for their own issues.
Charmaines feelings are valid, but they have nothing to do with your desire or ability to play. In the world of hip hop, Eminem is one of the best ever. He does not, and should not sound black. He sounds like Marshall Mathers from 8 Mile. His whiteness allows him to rap about subject matter that many blacks cannot relate to, like being disrespectful or so angry towards his mom. His whiteness has catapulted him to stardom quicker and more efficiently than any black artist who is equally as talented. Does that mean he shouldn't do it? I have witnessed Eminem with my own eyes pay his dues when he was broke and not famous, and I have witnessed him respect and give back to the culture when he became famous. Charmaine would probably not agree with this. But maybe she has not witnessed what I have. If you told me there would be a white rapper as good as Eminem a year before I met him I would have said probably not. I had to bear witness. Her anger could be directed in a more positive way. She obviously passionately cares about her people, and more black women should. But she must realize where the true enemy is. It is not black men, or white women who play jazz. It is much bigger than that. She should focus on fighting systematic oppression rather than individuals.
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Permalink Reply by Chelsea Baratz on
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I appreciate that very much. Thank you for chiming in & giving your time to this discussion!
Talib Kweli said:Charmaine is obviously in a lot of pain and bitter. Most of her issues (black men representing improperly, Birth of A Nation) have nothing to do with music. And since when does mainstream media like Jazz.com determine what we know to be the truth about music? That would be like me saying fuck hip hop because Billboard magazine says Wocka Flocka is a great rapper. Who cares what Jazz.com thinks about hows best? A real jazz fan doesn't. Her anger towards you is misguided and sad, but is also a reflection of how deep the racial divide is. Music is one of if not the only thing that has the ability to cut across racial lines and it provides hope that one day racism may not be an issue. I agree that you cannot play jazz with the same pain as a black musician, but so what? That is what makes your music your music. You have your own pain and experience that you add to whatever you play. The theft and exploitation of black music is a real issue, and something you must always be aware of as a player of music that comes from the black community but the argument that you should not play it or even the idea that this person has a right to come at you like that is ridiculous. You owe a debt to black music no doubt. We all do. But the internet and social networking leads people to believe they can randomly pick someone out to crucify for their own issues.
Charmaines feelings are valid, but they have nothing to do with your desire or ability to play. In the world of hip hop, Eminem is one of the best ever. He does not, and should not sound black. He sounds like Marshall Mathers from 8 Mile. His whiteness allows him to rap about subject matter that many blacks cannot relate to, like being disrespectful or so angry towards his mom. His whiteness has catapulted him to stardom quicker and more efficiently than any black artist who is equally as talented. Does that mean he shouldn't do it? I have witnessed Eminem with my own eyes pay his dues when he was broke and not famous, and I have witnessed him respect and give back to the culture when he became famous. Charmaine would probably not agree with this. But maybe she has not witnessed what I have. If you told me there would be a white rapper as good as Eminem a year before I met him I would have said probably not. I had to bear witness. Her anger could be directed in a more positive way. She obviously passionately cares about her people, and more black women should. But she must realize where the true enemy is. It is not black men, or white women who play jazz. It is much bigger than that. She should focus on fighting systematic oppression rather than individuals.
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Permalink Reply by Ricardo Ariza on -
I'm a trumpet player, latino(from Panama to be exact) being playing Jazz since I was 8 years old in a country where Jazz was mostly unhear of. I remember standing in front of store window and a tv set was on displayed. I was looking at the show they was presenting at the time. The name of that show was The Sounds of Jazz! Featuring Miles Davis. I was focus on that man playing the trumpet and in that moment I knew that I wanted to play just like that men on the tv set. The funny thing is that because I was out side the window I could not hear anything that he was playing. Later on in life I met a great trumpet player, Mr. David Woods, we all call him Woody. A great trumpet player and teacher. On a given lesson I ask him to please tell me his imput on how I sounded. Woody look at me and ask me if I wanted him to be honest. I reply, please do. He then looked at me and said: " who the Fuc%^& gave me the right to play music I don't know anyhting about" I then realized he was right. I did not know anything about Jazz history. Did not know anything about Miles, Coltrane, Bird...and so on. And all the pain and strugled. Over the years I have become not only a musician, but also an educator. I know that today, Woody would not feel the same way about me. I will pay tribute to all these human beings, great musicians male and females that have make they mark on this live. It's sad to see how the concept of race comes back over and over againg to try and bite us in the ass. People, much time has been wasted, many lives have been lost and so many souls have been changed because of this. Educate one another. Knowledge not shared does not worth nothing. I met Chelsea Baratz when she move to New York from Philly. She walk in to the music store I was running at the time. Young and eager to make her mark. She is doing her thing. And she will continued to do so. Everyone has a valid comment. Every body deals with their pain their own way. Everyone here is a human being not just black, white, yellow, purple, green...Please, lets unify as human beings so history may not repeat againg and againg. Thank you for taking the time to read my comment.
P.S. Woody, that great trumpet player...is white!
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Permalink Reply by Howard Pitkow on -
I'm not a Jazz musician although I wish I were. However I do play blues guitar and started studying delta blues guitar when I was twelve. That was about forty years ago.
When I play it I most certainly feel it. And yes, I play with a passion. The black/white comment is unnecessary and hardly true. We all feel pain in different ways. I'm not going to discuss what pain I have been through with the OP but I can assure you that I am passionate about everything I do and that includes playing music.
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Yeah, Howard. And your photography is great too. Thanks for all your work with the Captain Black Big Band.
Howard Pitkow said:I'm not a Jazz musician although I wish I were. However I do play blues guitar and started studying delta blues guitar when I was twelve. That was about forty years ago.
When I play it I most certainly feel it. And yes, I play with a passion. The black/white comment is unnecessary and hardly true. We all feel pain in different ways. I'm not going to discuss what pain I have been through with the OP but I can assure you that I am passionate about everything I do and that includes playing music.
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[Another re-post from facebook]
Douglas Paul:
Hmm. As a 1st Generation Haitian-American I have always been afforded the opportunity to experience both what it means to be "Black" in America and what it means to be a distant son of one of the poorest countries on the planet. What it has taught be is that pain, suffering and the passion those two can create are universal and such has the power ... See More to create a fire in all of us regardless of race or gender. Having been born, reared and raised in Brooklyn, in a neighborhood filled with African-Americans, West Indians, Hispanics and WHITE people, I saw pain that was being felt by all. We were all struggling, hungry, standing on government cheese lines, looking for jobs, wondering how they were going to pay the rent, gas bill, electric bill, wondering how they were going to feed kids, get them school supplies, winter clothes, summer clothes and etc. Again, pain and suffering is universal. A white person will never know what it is like to be called "nigger," but they know what it feels like to be called "white trash." I for one can't say with any certainty that hurts more or less than being called "nigger," but I'm 100% certain that it doesn't feel good. I saw enough of that growing up to know it hurt my white neighbors to be called, especially in front of their children.
Every music teacher I have ever had has been Jewish and so I have a special place in my heart for Jewish people. To listen to the elders talk about their experiences living through the Holocaust is as bone chilling as listening to my African-American elders talk about growing up in the South during the height of overt racism which is just as ... See Morechilling listening to my mother talk about what it was like growing up dirt poor in Haiti. If these were so inclined and talented, they could all play jazz (or any music really) with a pain and passion that would rival Hubbard, Coltrane and etc.
While working on my first jazz album, the earthquake hit Haiti. I stopped working on that album (which was powered by my experiences as a Black man in America, in relationships and how I saw the world) to work on a new project for Haiti that was powered by the pain I felt seeing my motherland, brothers and sisters in such dire straits. The stories, melodies, concepts, arrangements and etc where and are completely different but nevertheless filled with pain, hurt, passion since they were fueled by stories, pictures, news and etc coming out of Haiti. Are they not as valid, heartfelt and powerful as those who write because they grew up in the South being called "boy" and "nigger" all their lives? Of course it is. Is it as skillful? That's another topic altogether since skill doesn't necessarily have anything to do with passion, hurt and etc.
Also, not everything that Hubbard, Coltrane and etc played was powered by pain. Many of it was powered by joy, happiness, hope, fear, anger and curiosity. Those feelings are also clearly universal. The perspective maybe different but those feelings are not exclusive to Black people.
In the end, Charmaine's statements seem to be rooted more in anger than logic, fact or understanding. Hopefully she's open to some advice. Even if it comes from a Sax playing white girl.
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Permalink Reply by Charmaine Nokuri on -
In a lot pain yes, but bitter no. I didn't pick out Chelsae to crucify her, she commented on an update on my page and I responded. My issue is not with the desire or ability to play music. It is the subversive bigotry, sexism, elitism and racism that plagues jazz music. I am not going to out anyone on your blog like that, but the comments that have come into my ear about what goes on and how women are treated in the jazz world is maddening. Also as one who grew up in a predominately white environment I know what white jazz musicians say when they think no black person is listening. Just the opportunity to get quality musical training is a challenge for African Americans...While white middle class parents spend $1,000s of dollars to send their kids to jazz camps and get the best equipment black parents are barely making ends meet. There is no way shape or form that a poor black kid is going to have quality music training to get into a top college if they don't go to a magnet school. Even my mentor a white man named Dave Detwiler said that.
Also let me explain to you the trials that black women go through trying to become jazz musicians. First it is utterly impossible to make it in jazz without shedding and networking with other male musicians. At the same time you want to have a social life. Thankfully all the cats who have looked out for me, have warned me about how black women are perceived even if they are hanging with certain guys and just talking about music. I have listened to cats I hang out with call a woman a ho simply because one night she came into a jam session with one cat and the next night came with another cat. I checked them and told them that she could just be talking about music. I'm not talking crap...I HAVE BEEN TOLD AND DEALT WITH THIS STUFF...Don't even get me started about the damn casting couch...Many very talented black women have stopped playing jazz music because some jerk who she didn't want to get down with like that started trashing her to the jazz community. In fact when I go out I am almost ALWAYS the only woman at jam sessions down here.
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You don't think that there are plenty of white kids and kids of other nationalities in America and elsewhere in the world who wish to be involved in the arts and can't because of lack if resources? And by no means do I say this to diminish any one person's, or group of peoples' struggle. Cuz it's real. But I'm an advocate of arts period. I went to Costa Rica summer of '07 & got to give masterclasses to some of the poorest schools in the world. They didn't have walls let alone lessons and instruments. I feel you as far as having opportunities, but I know many people who did have the opportunities growing up give back to communities in the name of the art at present time, and by globalizibg the issue to any one group of people because of skin color, you blind yourself to the greater truth that the issues are much bigger and more complicated than that, and you stand in the way of progress, by puting energy into something that won't help the cause.
As far as the stuff you deal with being a woman at jam sessions, I feel you on that, I've been through all that. But that's not a barometer of the entire music scene or the industry. I saw Beyonce's whole band come into jam sessions and throw down and get love & respect. Do you think they got to that point in their careers by being bitter, and do you think they play that way by holding bad energy close to themselves? You have to LET yourself shine by finding the light within. When I had to deal with that same bullshit at jam sessions, I rose above it by being 100% about the music. And if you think DC is bad, you aint seen nothin... I spent years having cats I respected musically try to get in my pants, no matter how hard I practiced or how well I performed. That's not a race thing though, that's human nature. And if you respect yourself (as you obviously do), then don't let it get to you so much! Dogs will be dogs. Surround yourself with good people, let the good energy in, filter the bad energy out. This music allows us to TRANSCEND the bad energy if you are open to that possibility.
Charmaine Nokuri said:In a lot pain yes, but bitter no. I didn't pick out Chelsae to crucify her, she commented on an update on my page and I responded. My issue is not with the desire or ability to play music. It is the subversive bigotry, sexism, elitism and racism that plagues jazz music. I am not going to out anyone on your blog like that, but the comments that have come into my ear about what goes on and how women are treated in the jazz world is maddening. Also as one who grew up in a predominately white environment I know what white jazz musicians say when they think no black person is listening. Just the opportunity to get quality musical training is a challenge for African Americans...While white middle class parents spend $1,000s of dollars to send their kids to jazz camps and get the best equipment black parents are barely making ends meet. There is no way shape or form that a poor black kid is going to have quality music training to get into a top college if they don't go to a magnet school. Even my mentor a white man named Dave Detwiler said that.
Also let me explain to you the trials that black women go through trying to become jazz musicians. First it is utterly impossible to make it in jazz without shedding and networking with other male musicians. At the same time you want to have a social life. Thankfully all the cats who have looked out for me, have warned me about how black women are perceived even if they are hanging with certain guys and just talking about music. I have listened to cats I hang out with call a woman a ho simply because one night she came into a jam session with one cat and the next night came with another cat. I checked them and told them that she could just be talking about music. I'm not talking crap...I HAVE BEEN TOLD AND DEALT WITH THIS STUFF...Don't even get me started about the damn casting couch...Many very talented black women have stopped playing jazz music because some jerk who she didn't want to get down with like that started trashing her to the jazz community. In fact when I go out I am almost ALWAYS the only woman at jam sessions down here.
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Permalink Reply by Talib Kweli on
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Hey Charmaine. Thank you for your response. You are completely correct about the bigotry sexism and elitism that exists not only in jazz but in ALL forms of art, especially hip hop. But that is not what your post was about. Your post challenged someone's right to play this music based on their skin color, which is prejudiced, if not racist. Yes, white people are often racist when they think no one is listening, and no one can challenge you on that. Yes, affluent white people can send their kids to jazz camp, but so what? Jazz did not start in jazz camp, it starts in your heart. As long as you truly know that why does someone going to jazz camp even matter? It really doesn't. I'm a musician simply because I declare myself to be a musician. I did not go to hip hop camp, and if there was one, I would not need to go to validate what I do. You shouldn't worry about those who do. Your craft and the mastering of it should be your only focus, the politics of the music industry do not make or break an artist. Only the artist can make or break their career, you are giving too much power to outside forces.
You are not the first woman to go thru this sexism and you won't be the last. It will make you stronger. Use this strength to enhance yourself, not to criticize how others participate. Start a website or blog for black women in the arts. Throw shows and feature black female artists. If you are not doing things like this, you are not doing anything. And if you are doing things like this, your time is better spent promoting these things than making the argument you are making. You can do it sister! And we will always have your back here.
Charmaine Nokuri said:In a lot pain yes, but bitter no. I didn't pick out Chelsae to crucify her, she commented on an update on my page and I responded. My issue is not with the desire or ability to play music. It is the subversive bigotry, sexism, elitism and racism that plagues jazz music. I am not going to out anyone on your blog like that, but the comments that have come into my ear about what goes on and how women are treated in the jazz world is maddening. Also as one who grew up in a predominately white environment I know what white jazz musicians say when they think no black person is listening. Just the opportunity to get quality musical training is a challenge for African Americans...While white middle class parents spend $1,000s of dollars to send their kids to jazz camps and get the best equipment black parents are barely making ends meet. There is no way shape or form that a poor black kid is going to have quality music training to get into a top college if they don't go to a magnet school. Even my mentor a white man named Dave Detwiler said that.
Also let me explain to you the trials that black women go through trying to become jazz musicians. First it is utterly impossible to make it in jazz without shedding and networking with other male musicians. At the same time you want to have a social life. Thankfully all the cats who have looked out for me, have warned me about how black women are perceived even if they are hanging with certain guys and just talking about music. I have listened to cats I hang out with call a woman a ho simply because one night she came into a jam session with one cat and the next night came with another cat. I checked them and told them that she could just be talking about music. I'm not talking crap...I HAVE BEEN TOLD AND DEALT WITH THIS STUFF...Don't even get me started about the damn casting couch...Many very talented black women have stopped playing jazz music because some jerk who she didn't want to get down with like that started trashing her to the jazz community. In fact when I go out I am almost ALWAYS the only woman at jam sessions down here.
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Permalink Reply by Charmaine Nokuri on
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I have not negated anyones right to play any music. Chelsea took some quotes of mine out of the context of the discussion. Again I am not bitter and I really do take issue when people think that because an African American woman chooses to give voice to a struggle she is considered bitter. Susan B. Anthony the mother of the Women's Suffrage Movement gets a coin for being angry about inequalities. My fight isn't even really for myself, my music career continues to grow leaps and bounds because to me the best Affirmative Action plan is getting on your knees. My fight is for the young girls that Nas talked about in "I know I can"... I haven't heard your lyrics Talib but I hear you are supposed to be one of the more consciousness rappers and many of my friends expressed disappointment at your lack of support for this discussion. I am actually rather confused why you seem so non-chalant about the economic disparities that alienate black people from the mainstream. If MLK, Malcom, Amiri Baraki, Mary Mcleod Bethune, W.E.B. Dubois took a who cares attitude where would you and I be ?
But with all due respect as well you are not a jazz musician and this conversation is limited to that specific genre because of the alienation of black people from the music by elitest elements which is why as you noted no one even listens to jazz. Jazz is a very different genre of music than hip hop or other black pop music because of the musicianship and theoretical knowledge required. No one is making it as a jazz musician today without getting proper musical training.
Talib Kweli said:Hey Charmaine. Thank you for your response. You are completely correct about the bigotry sexism and elitism that exists not only in jazz but in ALL forms of art, especially hip hop. But that is not what your post was about. Your post challenged someone's right to play this music based on their skin color, which is prejudiced, if not racist. Yes, white people are often racist when they think no one is listening, and no one can challenge you on that. Yes, affluent white people can send their kids to jazz camp, but so what? Jazz did not start in jazz camp, it starts in your heart. As long as you truly know that why does someone going to jazz camp even matter? It really doesn't. I'm a musician simply because I declare myself to be a musician. I did not go to hip hop camp, and if there was one, I would not need to go to validate what I do. You shouldn't worry about those who do. Your craft and the mastering of it should be your only focus, the politics of the music industry do not make or break an artist. Only the artist can make or break their career, you are giving too much power to outside forces.
You are not the first woman to go thru this sexism and you won't be the last. It will make you stronger. Use this strength to enhance yourself, not to criticize how others participate. Start a website or blog for black women in the arts. Throw shows and feature black female artists. If you are not doing things like this, you are not doing anything. And if you are doing things like this, your time is better spent promoting these things than making the argument you are making. You can do it sister! And we will always have your back here. Charmaine Nokuri said:In a lot pain yes, but bitter no. I didn't pick out Chelsae to crucify her, she commented on an update on my page and I responded. My issue is not with the desire or ability to play music. It is the subversive bigotry, sexism, elitism and racism that plagues jazz music. I am not going to out anyone on your blog like that, but the comments that have come into my ear about what goes on and how women are treated in the jazz world is maddening. Also as one who grew up in a predominately white environment I know what white jazz musicians say when they think no black person is listening. Just the opportunity to get quality musical training is a challenge for African Americans...While white middle class parents spend $1,000s of dollars to send their kids to jazz camps and get the best equipment black parents are barely making ends meet. There is no way shape or form that a poor black kid is going to have quality music training to get into a top college if they don't go to a magnet school. Even my mentor a white man named Dave Detwiler said that.
Also let me explain to you the trials that black women go through trying to become jazz musicians. First it is utterly impossible to make it in jazz without shedding and networking with other male musicians. At the same time you want to have a social life. Thankfully all the cats who have looked out for me, have warned me about how black women are perceived even if they are hanging with certain guys and just talking about music. I have listened to cats I hang out with call a woman a ho simply because one night she came into a jam session with one cat and the next night came with another cat. I checked them and told them that she could just be talking about music. I'm not talking crap...I HAVE BEEN TOLD AND DEALT WITH THIS STUFF...Don't even get me started about the damn casting couch...Many very talented black women have stopped playing jazz music because some jerk who she didn't want to get down with like that started trashing her to the jazz community. In fact when I go out I am almost ALWAYS the only woman at jam sessions down here.
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Permalink Reply by Talib Kweli on
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OK, you're not bitter. But your post comes across like you are angry about the fact that white people cannot play jazz with the same pain that black people can. If you are not angry about it I apologize, but you do come across like you are. This is a fact, but not one we need to waste anytime losing sleep over. And Susan B Anthony did not get a coin for anger, anger, is at best a motivational force. She got a coin because of what she did, not because she got angry, there's a difference. Again I ask, what are you doing to change the things you are complaining about, and why have those things not been mentioned in this discussion?
You lose me when you say you haven't heard my lyrics, and you even go on further to give me hearsay comments from your girlfriends. This is hardly a respectful way to participate in a discussion with me. Add that to the fact that your girlfriends description of my commitment to women's struggle is highly inaccurate. You cannot name a rapper who has done more songs with female MCs. Go ahead try. I'll wait.
From Bahamadia to Rah Digga to Mystic to Invincible to Apani B Fly to my extensive work with Jean Grae I have records with all of them. With songs like We Know ft Faith Evans, I Try feat Mary J Blige, We Know feat Res, to my Nina Simone 4 Women remake, to Black Girl Pain to Momma Can You Hear Me to Broken Glass, you would be hard pressed to find a hip hop artist with a better track record on women's issues. These are just the ones I can name off the top of my head. My resume proves your girlfriends wrong. Have you heard ANY of these songs?
There is nothing nonchalant about my attitude when it comes to our people, my music and my community activism prove that already. I have been all over the world, to Cuba, to South Africa, Tanzania, China, Nigeria, Brazil. I have seen poverty that dwarfs anything we experience in America. I simply hate to see people complain when they really aint doing shit to change it. I have this website, with an Activism section. My entire body of work chronicles the plight of our people. I was in New Orleans post Katrina, and have worked with everyone from Refuse and Resist to the Malcolm X Grassroots movement. People read about Elaine Brown and Assata Shakur. I KNOW them.
So what I'm saying to you comes from knowledge, not ignorance. As your brother I am letting you know that focusing on who is playing what is a distraction. Music is one of the only things that connects us as humans. Of course their are disparities. But we cannot afford to let the disparities cripple us, physically or mentally.
Hiphop is closer to jazz than you think. And there is formal training for hip hop, it just exist in streets and nightclubs instead of stuffy ass schools. I perform with jazz bands all the time. I played with Soullive last night, and I have a set with Gary Burton next week. Stop worrying about mainstream attitudes and acceptance of our music. It is all our music. The mainstream has as much effect on it as we let it. We need to do a better job with the preservation of hip hop then we have done with jazz. But it is more similar than different.
Charmaine Nokuri said:I have not negated anyones right to play any music. Chelsea took some quotes of mine out of the context of the discussion. Again I am not bitter and I really do take issue when people think that because an African American woman chooses to give voice to a struggle she is considered bitter. Susan B. Anthony the mother of the Women's Suffrage Movement gets a coin for being angry about inequalities. My fight isn't even really for myself, my music career continues to grow leaps and bounds because to me the best Affirmative Action plan is getting on your knees. My fight is for the young girls that Nas talked about in "I know I can"... I haven't heard your lyrics Talib but I hear you are supposed to be one of the more consciousness rappers and many of my friends expressed disappointment at your lack of support for this discussion. I am actually rather confused why you seem so non-chalant about the economic disparities that alienate black people from the mainstream. If MLK, Malcom, Amiri Baraki, Mary Mcleod Bethune, W.E.B. Dubois took a who cares attitude where would you and I be ?
But with all due respect as well you are not a jazz musician and this conversation is limited to that specific genre because of the alienation of black people from the music by elitest elements which is why as you noted no one even listens to jazz. Jazz is a very different genre of music than hip hop or other black pop music because of the musicianship and theoretical knowledge required. No one is making it as a jazz musician today without getting proper musical training.
Talib Kweli said:Hey Charmaine. Thank you for your response. You are completely correct about the bigotry sexism and elitism that exists not only in jazz but in ALL forms of art, especially hip hop. But that is not what your post was about. Your post challenged someone's right to play this music based on their skin color, which is prejudiced, if not racist. Yes, white people are often racist when they think no one is listening, and no one can challenge you on that. Yes, affluent white people can send their kids to jazz camp, but so what? Jazz did not start in jazz camp, it starts in your heart. As long as you truly know that why does someone going to jazz camp even matter? It really doesn't. I'm a musician simply because I declare myself to be a musician. I did not go to hip hop camp, and if there was one, I would not need to go to validate what I do. You shouldn't worry about those who do. Your craft and the mastering of it should be your only focus, the politics of the music industry do not make or break an artist. Only the artist can make or break their career, you are giving too much power to outside forces.
You are not the first woman to go thru this sexism and you won't be the last. It will make you stronger. Use this strength to enhance yourself, not to criticize how others participate. Start a website or blog for black women in the arts. Throw shows and feature black female artists. If you are not doing things like this, you are not doing anything. And if you are doing things like this, your time is better spent promoting these things than making the argument you are making. You can do it sister! And we will always have your back here. Charmaine Nokuri said:In a lot pain yes, but bitter no. I didn't pick out Chelsae to crucify her, she commented on an update on my page and I responded. My issue is not with the desire or ability to play music. It is the subversive bigotry, sexism, elitism and racism that plagues jazz music. I am not going to out anyone on your blog like that, but the comments that have come into my ear about what goes on and how women are treated in the jazz world is maddening. Also as one who grew up in a predominately white environment I know what white jazz musicians say when they think no black person is listening. Just the opportunity to get quality musical training is a challenge for African Americans...While white middle class parents spend $1,000s of dollars to send their kids to jazz camps and get the best equipment black parents are barely making ends meet. There is no way shape or form that a poor black kid is going to have quality music training to get into a top college if they don't go to a magnet school. Even my mentor a white man named Dave Detwiler said that.
Also let me explain to you the trials that black women go through trying to become jazz musicians. First it is utterly impossible to make it in jazz without shedding and networking with other male musicians. At the same time you want to have a social life. Thankfully all the cats who have looked out for me, have warned me about how black women are perceived even if they are hanging with certain guys and just talking about music. I have listened to cats I hang out with call a woman a ho simply because one night she came into a jam session with one cat and the next night came with another cat. I checked them and told them that she could just be talking about music. I'm not talking crap...I HAVE BEEN TOLD AND DEALT WITH THIS STUFF...Don't even get me started about the damn casting couch...Many very talented black women have stopped playing jazz music because some jerk who she didn't want to get down with like that started trashing her to the jazz community. In fact when I go out I am almost ALWAYS the only woman at jam sessions down here.
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Permalink Reply by SUMMERTIME (Amanda) on -
"I played with Soullive last night, and I have a set with Gary Burton next week."
Why dont you adversite things like this on your Twitter?
I'm going to New York in a couple of months...would love to catch one of these sets....
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music were just about one specific kind of pain and struggle from one
particular experience, then only African Americans who experienced
those afformentioned struggles would be killin musicians and the music
wouldn't be as prosperous as it is today. You are looking at music
with a very myopic view. Music is about compassion. John Coltrane wrote
Alabama because of COMPASSION. Your view of music separated people, and
music is suppossed to UNIFY people.
(and)
Charmaine Michelle Duke Nokuri
(to which I replied)I'm
going 2 take a REALLY huge deep breath & suggest that you watch a
"The Birth of a Nation" by D.W. Griffith...I like how white people who
play jazz are totally dismissive of the black struggle that created
jazz music. And if u looked at Jazz.com Out of the 10 Young Lionesses
one is black in a music created by black ...people.
While some Spelman women choose 2 be silent about the injustices that
continue 2 face black women in the music industry I am not one of them.
Black women continue 2 have 2 work twice as hard for half as much. Why
? Mostly bcuz black men can't seem 2 understand that we are not b@$ches
& h@s. While I respect the musicianship of my brothas many of them
are small minded morons when comes 2 respecting & supporting
intelligent black women.
Chelsea Baratz I'm not at all discounting the black struggle that created jazz music. And
it's not just jazz music. It's most American popular music. White
people have been taking advantage of black entertainers for a long long
time. I'm quite aware. I'm just saying that right now, it's 2010, and
you don't have to use that as an excuse for my success, when ... See Moremy
being white isn't making it any easier for me to succeed as an
INDEPENDANT artist. I don't have a record deal or a publishing deal. I
started my OWN publishing company through ASCAP, I put my own record
out, and if you read the liner notes to my album, you'll see that of
the 16 musicians on my album (not including myself), 4 of them are
white. Two of them are latino. They all got paid equally. They all
equally represented the music. I don't have an album out because I'm
white, I work really hard, I practice, I study, I grind, I hustle like
crazy. And I'm not a white person who works for the music industry, I'm
an artist. I work for the art, and I'm going to be a recording artist
and a musician and a composer whether or not the industry is fucked up.
It's not all black and white. And if you really want to make it about
race, do you think it was easy for me to come up in a world where NO ON
expects a white girl to know anything about black music? That doesn't
matter. Music is universal. The essence of the music was born of the
black experience in America, and I have studied and internalized this
aspect of the music, in order to be a musician. There are many
prejudices against all kinds of people. Progress can not be made
without rising above this. And that doesn't mean I don't understand it,
or that I disrespect
thing. Sean Jones always told me that no one would ever expect me to be
a good musician, and I'd have to show it, I'd have to work harder to
earn respect, and he was right. So by making it a race thing, you are
undermining MY experience as a woman. I never undermined the black
experience in music.
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My responses come from my experience and perspective as a professional musician. For example, there have been many times that I've heard at an audition or prospective tour that such-and-such an artist doesn't want a female, or a white female on stage for the tour. ESPECIALLY in hip hop and R&B music. There was also a tour I got because I was a white female; it was a major label Korean pop artist, and they didn't even expect me to be able to play my intrument (they hired me just based on my looks and were going to have the horn parts playing from the protools track for all the shows until the first rehearsal we had when me and the other girl played the shit out of the horn parts, AND did choreography.)
However, I feel that Charmaine's feelings are very valid, because her experience and knowledge, which are obviouslt very different from mine, lead her there. I would appreciate it if anyone could chime in, and this discussion isn't just about jazz, or even just music, please speak on the music industry, racism, sexism, whatever you feel can better put what has been said into perspective.
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